|
Interview on Any
Questions
Transcript of RADIO 4 Interview
28 September 2001
[Presenter Jonathan Dimbleby welcomes audience and
listeners to the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, the first
municipal music college in London. He then presents the members of the
panel, Charles Kennedy MP, Glynis Kinnock MEP, James Rubin formerly,
senior aide to Madeline Albright, Chris Patten, European Commissioner
for external affairs]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: Presenter
Our first question please.
QUESTIONER #1:
David Ezekiel [phonetic spelling]. What more
can the western leaders do to restore financial confidence thus making
sure that the terrorists are not seen to win, to some extent?
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Chris Patten.
CHRIS PATTEN: European Commissioner for External Relations, European
Commission
I think it is, first of all, very important that
western leaders continue to do with other leaders as well, all that they
can to ensure that, whatever else happens, terrorist organisations
themselves aren’t going to be properly financed. I think beyond that,
there is one absolutely imperative thing that should happen. People will
talk about fiscal policy, people will talk about tax and spend, people
will talk about the very necessary efforts to help the airline industry.
But, for me, the key thing in the next few weeks and months is to make
sure that we have a successful meeting of the World Trade Organisation
in Doha and that we give a new boost to free trade and fair trade,
particularly fair for developing countries. I think it is very important
that we have… that we make this demonstration, that multilateralism,
that working together for a better world, that working together for a
more prosperous world is what we all want to see at the top of our
economic agenda and I think that we also need to recognise that this
time, that at this meeting, the World Trade Organisation has to
demonstrate that what we’re doing, what we’re attempting to do, what
we’re talking about is being fair to poorer countries around the world.
[Applause]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Charles Kennedy.
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Chris Patten.
CHRIS PATTEN:
That… that’s [applause]. I think there should
have been more applause actually because I think that’s is a response
that… that… that speaks for itself. I mean, this was an act of evil. It
wasn’t actually a response to the fact that the US had walked away from
the Kyoto Protocol. But, just let make this… this point, which is, I
hope germane. When the Berlin wall fell, we said that nothing would be
quite the same again and we said that nothing would be quite the same
again after the atrocities on the 11th of September and one
way in which nothing must be the same again is that we’ve actually got
to make international cooperation work and work more effectively and we
have to make the institutions of global governments work and work more
effectively. And, we can say perfectly well to the United States, it’s a
debate that’s been going on in the US. Actually, under the last
administration, as well, when issues like the International Criminal
Court was being debated.
JAMES RUBIN: Former US State Department Spokesman, Secretary of State
Madeline Albright
[Interrupting]
We signed that at the end.
CHRIS PATTEN:
You signed that at the end but it didn’t actually go
through the Senate, unfortunately. We have to be able to say yes, we
know you’re Gulliver but you have to understand that you’re legitimacy
and the effectiveness of what you do will largely be… be dependent on
how you manage to work with the rest of us. And, for the rest of us we
have to be able to demonstrate that international cooperation, that
multilateralism does actually work. If we don’t demonstrate that we’re
serious about dealing with issues like the financing of terrorism, if we
don’t demonstrate that we can make the United Nations a really effective
instrument for better governance around the world then people in the
United States and elsewhere will say, see, we were absolutely right. We
have to handle all this on ourselves. I think this is a defining moment
for United States foreign policy, for US attitudes to the rest of the
world and whether the US takes the right decisions on things like Doha
on things like the WTO, on other issues, will very largely depend on
whether we recognise that we’re now faced with tough options not soft
options and we’ve got to actually put our actions where our mouths are.
[Applause]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Our next question please.
QUESTIONER #2:
Anisha Gina [phonetic spelling]. As a young
British Asian brought up in the Muslim faith how do I react to a comment
such as the one made by Silvio Berlusconi, this week?
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Who said, as the Italian prime minister, we should be
conscious of the superiority of our civilisation which consists of a
value system that’s given people widespread prosperity and guarantees
respect for human rights and religion. This respect, he went on to say,
most certainly does not exist in the Islamic countries. Glynis Kinnock.
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Chris Patten.
CHRIS PATTEN:
I’d just been in Pakistan and Iran and Saudi Arabia
and was on my way to Damascus to explain to the Islamic world that we
didn’t think that the campaign that was launched was the west against
Islam but was decency against the forces of darkness, when at a press
conference in Cairo a journalist referred to the remarks that were made
by Mr. Berlusconi and I responded, reaching for straws, that I’m sure
that a spokesman for the Italian government would say before very long
that these remarks had been taken out of context and indeed within 24
hours a spokesman of the Italian government. So, let’s suppose that they
were taken out of context, but let’s still deal with the point that was
perhaps not made but was certainly reported, not least on television.
The remark is morally flawed, it’s historically inaccurate and it’s
politically, profoundly foolish. I’m a practising Christian, I’m a
citizen of a European country, I am extremely proud of the achievements
of western, Christian civilisation, artistically, commercially,
culturally and I think we’ve happened to have devised a form of
government that best combines individual freedom and social solidarity.
But I’ll tell you what else western civilisation, Europe has given the
world in the last 100 years – two world wars. The gulag, the gas
chamber. Every citizen of an Islamic country who heard those remarks
about the superiority of western civilisation could have turned on CNN
or BBC World, for the last few weeks and seen pictures from Belfast, of
little kids having to go to school running the gauntlet of spitting,
shouting crowds of examples of western Christian civilisation
[applause]. So… so, I think, that we need to remember when we
address these issues that one of the attributes of Christianity is
humility and I think we should display a little humility when we talk
about this. Where this is dangerous is it is entirely right that we
should espouse human rights around the world but we have to make it
clear that we don’t have a monopoly of virtue when we talk to other
people about human rights and we also have to make it absolutely clear
that in our judgement, whatever the civilisation or religion, human
rights are universally valid and why I think this sort of remark is
dangerous is because it makes it more difficult for us to put that
argument in Asia, in Latin America and in the Middle East [Applause].
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
And our next question.
QUESTIONER #3:
Ian Horseborough [phonetic spelling]. If the
purpose of the arts is to reflect the human condition what is their role
in times of uncertainty?
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
CHRIS PATTEN:
My favourite sung mass is the Haydn mass, In Time
of Peril, which I think was written just before the Battle of
Trafalgar, when people were perhaps expecting the worst, and then
‘hey-ho’ Nelson ‘socked’ [phonetic spelling] them one. And, I…
CHARLES KENNEDY MP: Leader, Liberal Democrat Party
[Interrupting]
That’s… that’s not very diplomatic speak, Commissioner.
CHRIS PATTEN:
Nor very Francophile, perhaps. I think what a great
piece of music at that time must have done was to make people, as
Charles was suggesting, lift their eyes a bit and realise that there was
another dimension beyond human affairs and I think with perhaps,
particular reference to the terrible events of this month. What great
art should remind one of, is that as well as original sin, responsible,
after all, for those atrocities we should also believe in original
virtue.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Can I ask you one more thing about that because there
are those artists who say that their task too is to challenge, to
question, to be uncomfortable. Do you think there is a role too or is it
too early, to pick up what James Rubin said, for a lot of testing
thoughts expressed through the prism of various art forms.
CHRIS PATTEN:
Yes, of course, I do. I think that very often, for
example, the most important political issues are dealt with through
novels, even through the visual arts as well and I’m sure that will
happen in this case too. I have to say that when people talk about ways
of memorialising the martyred, the dead of the twin towers that there
will be some profound artistic way of doing that, perhaps in the form of
a great piece of sculpture. But "Guernica" was a very good example, I
guess, of a great work of art coming out of a terrible disaster,
Picasso.
QUESTIONER #4:
Bernie Morgan [phonetic spelling]. If you were
the Queen, how would you deal with your squabbling offspring?
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
You have in mind St. Andrews University…
BERNIE MORGAN:
[Interrupting]
That’s right.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
… and the photography by the Ardent company…
BERNIE MORGAN:
That’s right. Yes.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
… breaking the agreed rules. Chris Patten.
CHRIS PATTEN:
[Laughs]
I think, first of all, if I was to start thinking of myself as the Queen
[the audience laughs].
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
[Interrupting]
You were more or less when you were in Hong Kong, weren’t you?
CHRIS PATTEN:
I don’t think anybody called me the old queen of Hong
Kong. But I… I think this really would be a… an example of Les Majesty,
off with his head. I think I would… I would want to… I think one would
want to make it a… clear that Prince William deserved his privacy even
in relation to his own family.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
The… the debate as it’s been put, it’s been said that
the Prince of Wales believes that his brother, Prince Edward, the uncle
of Prince William should either be a royal, as it were full-time, or
choose to make television programmes but you can’t do both without
getting in to this kind of problem. What’s your view about that?
CHRIS PATTEN:
I think that sounds pretty sensible. I don’t think
you should stop members of the royal family earning their own living but
I think they should make a choice and I think it’s quite difficult to do
both without it raising rather difficult issues that cross borders and…
and produce problems of definition.
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
CHRIS PATTEN:
I think… I think what would be sad is if this episode
made some of our own tabloids or paparazzi think that the agreements
were off and they could now make Prince William’s life hell and I hope
that won’t happen. I think the tabloids have behaved well, so far and I
hope they’ll go on doing so because this is a young man and obviously
rather an extremely agreeable young man who deserves to enjoy his time
at university like all our kids.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
We’re on to our next question with that.
QUESTIONER #5:
Jeff Coates [phonetic spelling], Student Union
President at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. When is
discrimination not discrimination? Are gender quotas an insult to women,
a threat to men or an affront to everyone’s integrity?
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Gynis Kinnock.
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
CHRIS PATTEN:
Well, one of the sacrifices I made this week in order
to travel 20,000 odd kilometres round the Middle East and beyond was
that I missed the Liberal Democrat conference and…
CHARLES KENNEDY MP:
[Interrupting]
And we missed you, we missed you.
CHRIS PATTEN:
And you’ll go on missing me. And, in particular… in
particular I… I missed this debate. In the party…
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
[Interrupting]
Shall I get… shall I just interrupt it for a moment and get Charles
Kennedy, ‘cause it was an incredibly complicated debate, with amendments
followed by amendments. Just very… summarize before you take your own
view. Summarize it very briefly, what decision did you make? [Charles
Kennedy MP gives his response].
CHRIS PATTEN:
Could you say that
again? [Audience laughter].
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
I don’t… I don’t think we should put him to the test.
Now, that it’s as clear as it’s likely to be, your quick thought. Is it…
just to come to the question. Are these quotas, 40 per cent, says
Charles Kennedy in winnable seats, an insult to women, a threat to men
or an affront to all our integrity? Jeff Coates asks.
CHRIS PATTEN:
I think there should be more women in the House of
Commons. I think it is perfectly reasonable to insist on having a
proportion of women on every selection list in a constituency. What has
always amazed me and the party I know best, is that the majority of
party members are, I think, invariably women and they’re so lax in
actually choosing women candidates. It’s a… it’s absolutely astonishing
to me. But I have… I have no difficulty at all in insisting on a
proportion of women on every list but I’d have a lot of difficulty going
further than that and I think a lot of women would feel that sometimes
if when they were chosen in their… on terms that were more favourable
than that, they haven’t been chosen on their own merits.
[The other panellists continue their responses to the
question]
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
And we can just squeeze in one more.
QUESTIONER #6:
Lorna Boyd [phonetic spelling]. If a musical
was made based on your life, which song would you want included and why?
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
A musical on your life, which song? Any song and why?
Not long, I’m afraid, I… start with you, Chris Patten… ‘cause you were
trying to hide.
CHRIS PATTEN:
I think if it was tonight, Some Enchanted Evening.
JONATHAN DIMBLEBY:
Well done and thank you very much. That’s all we have
time for, for this week.
|